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I figured now was a good time to bring up this topic since it's something that comes up every so often and we may as well have a discussion about it.

The Scions have a fairly uncommon view when it comes to the lore of the game. That is, we do our best not to contradict the established story and themes set by Blizzard. Now, to be fair this can sometimes be a bit of a grey area and some situations are more open to interpretation than others.

If it's a half-demon-angel-son-of-Arthas-vampire, then we probably all agree that's going too far.

However, one area where some lore oriented players seem to have different feelings is inter-racial friendships and relationships.

Firstly, I'll clarify that this is not the race of the players involved. If anyone encounters any degree of OOC bigotry then please bring that to an officer's attention. We do not tolerate OOC racial discrimination.

This is about the "race" of the character (technically the species but we use the term race since that's what Blizzard uses). The Scions are sub-divided by character race for the purpose of facilitating and encouraging greater RP. We want our members to feel a palpable difference when they log into their troll versus when they log into their elf. This is reflected in the race oriented chat channels and RP events as well as the over all story behind each Scions guild.

Now the themes and histories of some Warcraft races have them set in opposition to other, even within the same faction. The starkest example of this would be the trolls and elves of the Horde. This is also the most relevant example to our community given that the majority of us play one of these two races as our main character.

For those who are not familiar with the history of these two races I'd encourage you to read up a bit in our Lore Library. I'll summarize it by saying that the two races have been in more or less constant conflict ever since the elves first appeared, more than 10.000 years ago. The most recent being the conflicts between the old Horde and the Alliance.

Now with this in mind, it's very unlikely that an elf and a troll would grow to become close trusted friends, or lovers.

The response I've gotten in the past is "But why is it impossible?"

To which I reply, it's not. But that's not our standard here with the Scions. We're not looking to illuminate those highly unlikely stories that go against the grain of the lore. There's a whole server out there doing that already. It's taken care of.

What we're doing is supporting the story as Blizzard tells it. Our RP culture is to look for what is probable, not merely possible. What would the average troll of the Horde think when encountering the average elf of the Horde? And vice versa.

Now, I'll grant you...that's hard.

It can feel stifling sometimes to have an idea for a plotline only to realize that it's out of synch with the lore. However, that's the choice we make when we say that we'll ahere to the lore. I also feel that through this kind of focused, dedicated RP we actually end up with deeper stories and more meaningful relationships. It brings out the deeper creativity of the player to work within the boundaries of someone else's ideas. That's when role playing approaches the level of an art form and when it can be the most poingant and evocative.

For those who don't fully understand what I mean please feel free to pose questions here. I'd like for everyone to be on the same page.

I'm afraid the only question I have, really, is one only I can answer. Taking into consideration the fact that the only roleplay I've been able to find among the Scions is with several people who play trolls, along with those in my own household, the answer that I get to the question is, unfortunately, a sad one.

That question is, simply: do I belong here?

And I don't like the answer I'm getting. So I'll be quiet now, and think long and hard on it, before formulating any sort of permanent answer to that question.

Well, you're right in that only you can answer that question. It's a matter of whether or not you feel comfortable role-playing as we do.

Something I hope everyone will keep in mind is that the Scions still have a ways to go before we're fully established. This community is a work in progress and we hope to continue growing over the next few months. With more community members comes more oppurtunity for grouping and role-playing.

I hope it's also clear that I'm not suggesting trolls and elves don't interact. What I'm pointing out is that their interactions should reflect the themes that Blizzard has established. This might mean they become reluctant allies, or friends of convenience. Perhaps they share something simple, like a dark sense of humor. There are many ways to play within the bounds that Blizzard sets.

Feel free to chat with me any time if you'd like to brainstorm some ideas.

I do appreciate the offer, but I know for a fact you're not blind to Arhi's storyline. That and many other factors have had me questioning whether or not I truly belong here; your post was just the nudge, as it were, that's given the voice that's niggled at me in the back of my head for awhile a bit more attention.

I didn't set out for it to develop that way, it just has. And with the lack of RP opportunities elsewhere within the group, it's just combined to make me thoroughly question whether or not being a member of this group is beneficial to me, and to my characters.

It's something I'll really have to think on. I've been feeling alienated for awhile; this just kinda shoved it all to the forefront of my mind. I'm not inclined to halt or shift Arhi's story; this, too, makes it difficult.

But enough about me and how this personally applies. As I said, I'll give it some serious thought before making any kind of permanent decision.

I respectfully disagree that the lore dictates such a stance.

It is, in fact, the forest trolls that the blood elves have such a strained past with, to my knowledge and from what I have been reading, not the trolls of the Horde. Way, way, way back the highborne and the trolls fought, but the blood elves mainly hate forest trolls, not the island trolls.

Hmmm... Some thoughts.

Since the Darkspear were driven off by other Trolls, could there not be the sort of interracial hatred between tribes and there is between the Sin'dorei and Kaldorei? Could that not create a "Any enemy of my enemy is a friend" mentality? As is hinted at in this quest?

http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=8479

Of course, Ven'jashi in the above mentioned quest could be more interested in his revenge against Chieftain Zul'Marosh than in is hatred of elves... *shrug*. You can take the quest and what it says at face value, or you can perhaps justify some hidden motive, it creates a grey area. And, we love grey areas to hook a character story into.


Also, how should reputation be handled in RP? Raj, you mentioned before that a high rank earned through PvP and RPed has a vast difference than a level 2 saying they are a general. The player who spent the time and effort in gaining that rank would be well within their rights of RPing that rank. What about rep? It seems the same logic should apply, correct?


Also Arhi, I don't think Raj is saying a Troll & elf relationship is impossible, I think he is trying to say ( correct me if I am wrong Raj ) that, if you choose to RP that relationship, RP it in a way that suits the environment and situation. Your character in their environment and that situation will react differently if they are involved in an interracial relationship than you would.

For example, consider how you would react standing on the end of a runway and a passenger jet passes over you and lands. Now, take a 15th century knight and place him at the end of the same runway and let a jet land. Consider how that knight would react.

Now, if you were RPing that Knight, you would want to have him react like a 15th century knight plucked out of time and finding themselves standing in a sea of black with a huge monstrosity swooping down on him with it's wings spread and claws extended, roaring so loud that he felt his ears may burst... rather than wondering if the plane was a 13 hour non-stop and if there were any screaming 4-year-olds on-board.

Just guessing from the tone...I think what is being said is that it's not impossible...it's just impossible for this guild, because the standard is that it's members adhere to the norms established in the lore, and do not stretch wildly beyond it.

The troll vs elf dynamic is a long running theme in Warcraft. It reaches back to the origin of the elves, yes, but it's not something that's disappeared since then. Certainly forest trolls have more reason to be angry with the blood elves.

Part of what this comes down to is how we RP the differences between the races. When you choose to RP a troll character it's important to play that differently then you would another race. Trolls are more savage. Less trusting. Similarly elves are more aloof.

Much of the purpose behind having a racially divided community as we do here is to help people get in touch with their character's background. We want to see players getting into the skin of their trolls and elves, among other races. Actually try to see the world through their eyes when they role-play as those races. There is a difference and that difference is interesting. I don't want to see it lost.

Oh, trolls hate each other nearly as much as they hate the elves, you bet!

There's a long standing tradition of internal warfare among the trolls subraces and tribes. I could go on about why I think that is and if you're curious it might be a fun question for you to pose to Rajuul at some point.

But, yes, the trolls and elves of the Horde are allies right now. That's also a part of the storyline. However that relationship is different than the relationship between trolls and orcs, for example. Trolls and elves have their own history and each race has it's own reason for being willing to cooperate with the other. This is actually something that we started RPing with the Guru'Na several months before the expansion when "rumors" of the upcoming treaty with the elves were circulating. One concern is for the Revantusk, forest troll allies of the Horde.

It's a great source of RP tension and potentially some very cool storylines. I don't want people to pretend that trolls and elves are not allies, what I want is for the themes behind that alliance to be upheld.

For myself I generally don't RP rep. I think Raj is only honored with the Darkspear but exalted with the Mag'har. I think it's great when people do though. If you'd like to RP having greater status with the factions who you have more rep points with that's fine. I don't think it erases pre-existing prejudices among the characters of that faction. It could actually lead to some more great RP stories as the blood elves celebrate their "savage champion" the troll! They admire his combat prowess, but they still hold him at arms length and only welcome him at their parties as the latest novelty.

I don't think that there should be a high level of trust between trolls and elves of the Scions. Let me put it that way. Certainly outside of this guild people can RP however they like and I'd be a jerk to say otherwise. However within this guild I'd like for people to at least make some attempt to uphold the themes Blizzard sets (Whether or not I'm still a jerk is up to you at that point ).

So for example, an elf and a troll might find themselves thrown together in combat. They are fighting a common enemy and so they help keep each other alive. After the battle they warily give each other a small degree of respect, knowing that had the situation been slightly different the other would have happily killed them. Perhaps they decide to break for a meal and the elf makes a snide quip about murlocs. The trolls laughs and the two share another moment of comraderie. Over time these two characters might share other experiences that bond them together in a kind of friendship. However, all the while each of them knows that their ancestors have been warring for generations and the present alliance might be disolved at any moment. The underlying tension of the friendship might be, who will be the first to turn on the other?

<grins>

Now I don't know about you, but to me that's a great story! I'd love to find a role-player out there to play out something like that.

I don't expect everyone to create the same exact story for their characters and I realize that as people relax and RP with their friends they tend to lose some of the distrust they might otherwise play out. That's fine, to a point. However once you get to the point of actually role-playing a romantic relationship between two members of opposing races then I think you're ignoring too much to the history and context of the setting.

Again, not to say that it's impossible for any troll to ever love and elf, but it is highly improbable. That's what I'd like us to understand here. Rather than challenging the lore with unlikely stories I want to see us supporting the lore by being that rare community which actually works with what Blizzard gives us in our creative endeavors.

This does seem to go a bit against lore - not in the troll and elf situation, but what about Orc and Draenei? There is just as much animosity between those two races, yet in Nagrand you do quests for a half orc, half draenei blademaster.

I think this can be directly extended to the trolls and elves, honestly.

Half orc-draenei are seen in a couple places. The difference is that orcs and draenei were not such mortal enemies prior to the orcs corruption. Their history is more recent, though still a very powerful theme in the present storyline of those races. You wouldn't be likely to see a modern orc and draenei get together.

there is more then one form of love, love for family, love for friends, and love for lots of other reasons, all of witch are basically the same.

Have you ever been in love Raj? you cant control it and you'd be a fool to try,love is something spontaneous, it can creep up on you, and BAM it hits you when your not looking(blasted rogues), to say it can't happen because its improbable is a mockery, love does not work by any rules, if it hits and the pair RP they are in love then an ancient feud would be best left to those that aren't binded by love to convince the
couple that it matters.

Now lust between the races, is not impossible either in fact its more likely in my opinion, everyone needs to scratch an itch every now and then, and if they care more about themselves then the race then they will worry about scratching the itch first, and granted almost all the races aren't human it is human nature and that of the other races to put themselves first.

In conclusion Love blinds and anything else will come second unless its from an outside influence like a disgruntled clan/family elder it is unlikely to make a large impact on the bewildered pair

Those are good points, Heam, and I whole heartedly agree. However, I think the improbability applies to our community as a whole, which, in turn, applies to individuals. It's true that lovers have come from opposite "factions" a multitude of times throughout history. Real life Romeo and Juliets if you will. However, these are NOT the norm. In a community that is so small, such as ours, having these improbable relationships being part of even a half a dozen characters makes them a much larger percentage of our population than is even plausible. Hatreds that you are raised with are very difficult to break, and a large majority, if not all, Trolls and Elves, would have been raised with these hatreds.

In addition, I'd like to point out that conflict and discontent are infinitely more interesting forces than compliance and acceptance. There would be no stories worth telling if there was no conflict. Conflict and differences are just as important if not more important in the development and understanding of character as similarities.

I am in no way trying to tell anyone who their character should be. That is not my right. I am just trying to add some insight that I hope will create a deeper and more interesting environment for us all to RP in.

Heam, you're describing a modern human ethic. Not even all modern human cultures would agree with what you say, though of course I very much agree, you can ask my four year old son how much I love him.

However in WoW we don't play humans. We play members of races with varying cultures and values. They don't share all of ours, though they might share some. This is what makes role-playing exciting and also difficult. Not just the ability to act out our own persona within a fantasy setting, but the ability to adopt a different persona altogether.

It's when we really try to get under the skin of our characters that we find some of the more interesting aspects of our imaginations. That's what brings Warcraft to life.

my main points were 1. love is universal,no ifs or buts about it, and 2 love blinds, the obvious thing is that the conflict should come from the characters families and friends, rather then saying its not likely, roll with it and make it a conflict IC, no one is going to change there story after they have already done it, so accept it ooc and fight it IC like you should.
As Nahljin said the conflict makes it interesting, its not as interesting if all the conflict happens out here.

I'll still repeat that those are modern human ideas, Heam. There are plenty of places in the world were love is not seen in that same way, and one doesn't need to go back too far in our own history to get to different ideas about love.

And, yes, people can change their stories. I've retconned (retroactive continuity) my own backstories when I've found they conflict with the lore. It's not something that we like to see often, but it's a tool for people to use when needed. There are often approximate parallel ideas within the lore that someone can use to RP out much the same story. I'm happy to help find a way to make it work if anyone is not sure how to do so.

This sort of situation is why we have the rule on lore posted in the guild Mission and why when each new member joins the guild I emphasize this part of our RP culture. I know that it's tough for some people and I really am sorry if it leads to negative feelings. I realize that not everyone enjoys playing this way and that's their choice. However, this is the way that the Scions play. This is the one guild on Argent Dawn that I know of which still maintains these standards in upholding the lore and we're not going to let them fall by the way side.